Comments on The Rebel God: Luther's Theology of the Cross pt 2 abscondita sub...

Thanks Andy, I ordered both books from the library...

2006-08-21T15:25:00.000-07:00

Thanks Andy, I ordered both books from the library. I'm especially interested in "God and Human Suffering" since I think this is the direction that Luther needed to be taken in to address a wider range of what separates people from God.

The things I would recommend from Hall are The ...

2006-08-19T20:50:00.000-07:00
The things I would recommend from Hall are The Cross in Our Context (which is a condensed version of a three volume work) and God and Human Suffering.

The Christus Victor view of the atonement is pretty commonly accepted among ELCA Lutheran churches (and I think within the global Lutheran community), so I would guess the churches so named are named for this reason. In LCMS circles Christus Victor is viewed much more suspiciously.

Andy,

I'm not familiar with Douglass John H...

2006-08-19T17:10:00.000-07:00
Andy,

I'm not familiar with Douglass John Hall. What has he written?

Also, I've noticed that many Lutheran churches are called "Christus Victor" (google "Christus Victor" and most of the hits are for Lutheran churches). How does that fit in? Does that mean that These churches have adopted that view of the Atonement?

As a caveat, I haven't read Calvin, and I don't kn...

2006-08-19T16:41:00.000-07:00
As a caveat, I haven't read Calvin, and I don't know to what extent he can really be identified with subsequent Calvinism, which I will paint with a fairly broad brush. Having said that, when I speak of the difference between Calvinism and Lutheranism, I intend mainly to refer to these streams of Christianity near their roots and in the distinctly confessional branches of Calvinism today.

For instance, Douglass John Hall and Jurgen Moltman are in the "Reformed" tradition that would broadly be called Calvinism, but they see Luther in a Lutheran way. That is, they truly understand the theology of the cross.

But going back into the 16th and 17th century and continuing in more conservative Calvinists today (R.C. Sproul, for instance), I don't think this is true. And when they speak of Luther, they speak as though the theology of the cross were a disposable part of his theology, which it isn't.

Very broadly speaking, Calvinism is centered on the holiness of God the Father, whereas Lutheranism is centered the steadfast love ("hesed", in its full Biblcal sense) of God in Jesus Christ. Calvinism certainly has a special place for God in Christ, but it seems to me that they set up camp in the heavens, trying to see things from the eternal perspective of God. By contrast, Lutherans insist that God always comes down to us. As such, we set up camp at the cross. Luther says somewhere, "The cross alone is our theology."

This Christ-orientation of Luther may be seen in the following quotation (which is just one of many I could produce):

I have often advised and still advise younger theologians today that they must so study the Holy Scriptures that they refrain from investigating the Divine Majesty and His terrible works. God does not want us to learn to know Him in this way. You cannot nakedly associate with His naked Godhead. But Christ is our way to God. Those who speculate about the majesty are crushed and led to despair by Satan. The reason for this is that they are looking for answers of a kind that they cannot know, such as for the question: Why did God condemn Judas but spare Peter? And such a speculator argues with God as if with some potter. To keep us from striving to observe God in Himself in this matter, He came into the flesh, presenting the flesh to us, in which we might behold God dwelling bodily, as He answered Philip when the latter gazed at Him: “He who has seen Me has seen the Father” (John 14:9). From this, then, you see the madness of those who say that the flesh avails them nothing (cf. John 6:63), though on the contrary God is of no avail without the flesh. Indeed no God will avail for you except the God of Him who sucked the virgin’s breasts. On Him fix your eyes. For you cannot grasp God in Himself, unless perchance you want a consuming fire. But in Christ you see nothing but all sweetness, humanity, gentleness, clemency—in short, the forgiveness of sins and every mercy, etc. ... The incarnation of Christ powerfully calls us away from speculating about the divinity.
(Luther's Works vol. 16, p. 55)

I broad terms I find Calvinism to be a very rational, systematic faith while Lutheranism is based much more in proclamation. Things can be deduced in Calvinism. In Lutheranism, they can only be received.

In "Baptized We Live" (which can be found in part here), Daniel Erlander contrasts three ways of viewing the Bible. In one view, God dictates the Bible from which using human reason we can deduce true propositions. In a second view, humans write the Bible but using human reason we can deduce from it eternal truths. Against both of these, Erlander suggest that Lutherans see the Bible as a "living Word" which breaks into our lives and confronts us with a personal Truth. That is, God addresses us in the Bible.

This is central to a Lutheran way of seeing things.

Andy,

I was fascinated in any earlier post ...

2006-08-19T11:10:00.000-07:00
Andy,

I was fascinated in any earlier post by your explanations of the differences between Lutheranism and Calvinism. Could your expand a bit on that?

Pitchford,

Hey well thanks for all your inp...

2006-08-19T11:07:00.000-07:00
Pitchford,

Hey well thanks for all your input here, I value the chance to dialog with intelligent people who disagree with me :)

I posted my response over on your reformationtheology.com blog.

I never get tired of hearing Luther's theology of ...

2006-08-18T15:05:00.000-07:00
I never get tired of hearing Luther's theology of the cross.

And here I would note that the thought of God's alien work leads us back to Isaiah (28:21). In fact, Luther's theology of the cross and Isaiah's theology go hand-in-hand.

Isaiah has this amazing vision of God's wrath and God's deliverance. Christopher Seitz asks how people pre-Christian Isrealites could have heard the overflowing messianic promises in Isaiah and not denounce him as a false prophet. The answer he offers is that Isaiah's announcements of judgment came to pass and that in Isaiah's words the judgment and the blessing are inextricably bound together. The one brings the other, Isaiah tells us.

In the chapter where Isaiah speaks of God's alien work, he offers this surprising insight into the wrath of God:

Give ear, and hear my voice;
give attention, and hear my speech.
Does he who plows for sowing plow continually?
does he continually open and harrow his ground?
When he has leveled its surface,
does he not scatter dill, sow cumin,
and put in wheat in rows
and barley in its proper place,
and emmer as the border?
For he is rightly instructed;
his God teaches him.

Dill is not threshed with a threshing sledge,
nor is a cart wheel rolled over cumin,
but dill is beaten out with a stick,
and cumin with a rod.
Does one crush grain for bread?
No, he does not thresh it forever;
when he drives his cart wheel over it
with his horses, he does not crush it.
This also comes from the Lord of hosts;
he is wonderful in counsel
and excellent in wisdom.
-Isaiah 28:23-29 (ESV)

Luther, likewise, has this vision. He never seems to get tired of quoting 1 Samuel 2:6: "The Lord kills and brings to life."

Shark,

Thanks for the time you've invested ...

2006-08-18T14:03:00.000-07:00
Shark,

Thanks for the time you've invested in explaining your views to me. I still disagree strongly, as you no doubt concluded from some of my comments, but I've pretty much dropped out of the discussion here.

I just wanted to tell you that I wrote a brief rebuttal of your theory of the atonement for my blogs, www.pitch.fitzage.com and www.reformationtheology.com -- just in case you wanted to look through and make sure I am representing you fairly. Also, feel free to interact on either site.

Comments on The Rebel God: Luther's Theology of the Cross pt 2 abscondita sub...

Thanks Andy, I ordered both books from the library...

The things I would recommend from Hall are The ...

Andy,I'm not familiar with Douglass John H...

As a caveat, I haven't read Calvin, and I don't kn...

Andy,I was fascinated in any earlier post ...

Pitchford,Hey well thanks for all your inp...

I never get tired of hearing Luther's theology of ...

Shark,Thanks for the time you've invested ...

Andy,

I'm not familiar with Douglass John H...

Andy,

I was fascinated in any earlier post ...

Pitchford,

Hey well thanks for all your inp...

Shark,

Thanks for the time you've invested ...