Comments on The Rebel God: Bonhoeffer, Just War, and Nonviolence Pt 2

Are you possibly confusing the idea of "was eff...

2006-09-15T16:10:00.000-07:00
Are you possibly confusing the idea of "was effective when used" (which I did say) with "would have prevented it" (which I did not)?

I'm at least saying they're closely related. But I see your point about combatting versus preventing.

World War II is often used used as the trump card ...

2006-09-13T10:44:00.000-07:00
World War II is often used used as the trump card to prove that war is justifiable and necessary and that Christians be willing to participate in it.

However, as this post illustrates violence didn't do any good in preventing the horrors that took place under Hitler. I firmly believe that if the church in Germany had taken a stand against Hitler and with the Jews from the early 1930's the Holocaust would not have happened.

Wink's information is helpful as is the account of Andre Trocme and his parish in Le Chambon which saved thousands of Jews precsisely by living lives of total nonviolence and hospitality.

"The suggestion that non-violence would have worke...

2006-09-12T19:23:00.000-07:00
"The suggestion that non-violence would have worked in Germany seems dangerously akin to denying the Holocaust"

Not sure I get your connection here. Are you possibly confusing the idea of "was effective when used" (which I did say) with "would have prevented it" (which I did not)?

Violence did not stop the holocaust, it was however effective in combatting it. The same can be said for nonviolence. This is simply a historical fact. Through nonviolent actions many thousands of lives were saved.

"The power of non-violence is that it makes manifest the injustice of those it opposes"

I'd like to suggest that this is too narrow a defininition. This can be one element of some forms of noviolence. I do not think this is however the core or only aspect of it. At it's core it is asking "how can I end this hostility and hurt?" There are as many answers to that question as their are types of conflicts. Hostage negociation is nonviolent, diplomacy is nonviolent, when police use CIT to disarm a skizophenic street person waving a butcher's knife, that is non-violent. Your idea of "abduction" is also nonviolent.

"the defense of the common people after the war was 'we didn't know'."

I see this as the major failure, not a failure of Bonhoeffer, but a failure of others to have the courage to stand with him, particularly of Christians to do this. If people had stood up earlier perhaps things would not have gotten so insane. A major factor of Hitler's power was certianly that so many people stuck their heads in the sand. There is a famous quote byMartin Niemöller that expresses this

First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.

The suggestion that non-violence would have worked...

2006-09-12T10:34:00.000-07:00
The suggestion that non-violence would have worked in Germany seems dangerously akin to denying the Holocaust. I don't know the details of the situations in which it is claimed to have worked, but they were all likely very different from the situation in Germany.

The power of non-violence is that it makes manifest the injustice of those it opposes. What could be done to make the injustice of people who would kill 6 million Jews more manifest? Didn't Krystalnacht make it apparent? And yet, various things I've read lead me to believe that the defense of the common people after the war was "we didn't know."

It's a curious fact of non-violent resistence that it depends on the violence of its opponents for its success. Consider Martin Luther King Jr.'s failure in Albany. Laurie Pritchett smiled as he rounded up the protestors and politely hauled them off to jail. King found much better success against dogs and fire hoses.

Could it be that secret abduction, combined with the fear that generated, would have had a similar diffusing effect?