Comments on The Rebel God: Subjective and Objective Atonement - Abelard,Girar...

"Jesus doesn't appease anyone, and it's a total mi...

2007-03-10T17:51:00.000-08:00

"Jesus doesn't appease anyone, and it's a total misunderstanding to say that he takes on or appeases human wrath as opposed to divine wrath. He takes on neither. He merely takes the ONLY possible route to stop sacrificial violence."

Thanks for the insight. I find your argument here compelling and a better interpretation of Girard than mine.

Next time leave your name so we can know who you are :)

I was going to say that I think your understanding...

2007-03-10T11:06:00.000-08:00

I was going to say that I think your understanding of Girard as positing Jesus as a substitute for human wrath was wrong... but I think someone already said it. Jesus' death was not sacrificial, thus he did not appease either human or divine wrath. What he did was expose the wrath for what it is- he exposed the foundations of human violence, which always justifies itself by saying that God approves. If Jesus was appeasing human wrath, he would have taken on the role of the scapegoat. He did not do this. He was fully conscious that his persecutors were in a state of delusion, and that that is always how human violence occurs. He was conscious enough of this dynamic to say "Forgive them, they know not what they do." Jesus was also aware that fighting back against persecution employs the same persecutory complex as the original persecution. Who is to be the judge of when retaliation is justified? All persecutors think they are fighting righteously against evil; that is why a God of mercy cannot take sides to persecute. This is not relativity. There is only one truth, and it's the truth of the scapegoat. But violence extends the conflict.
Jesus doesn't appease anyone, and it's a total misunderstanding to say that he takes on or appeases human wrath as opposed to divine wrath. He takes on neither. He merely takes the ONLY possible route to stop sacrificial violence.
This is my understanding.

If I'm understanding Girard right Pagan gods are v...

2006-10-23T18:48:00.000-07:00

If I'm understanding Girard right Pagan gods are victims of lynch mob murders. The pagan god is both the bringer of evil/violence and the restorer of peace. The god brings violence to the community and then by the violent expulsion of the god peace is restored. All pagan/primitive religions have this same basic structure. Violence is embodied in the god.

The cross has unveiled the violence of the community. It is a condemnation of mob violence. I think Girardian theory has a lot of similarity with Christus Victor, the whole setting a trap for the devil.

I think I've moved beyond Girardian theory, a least a little bit, at least re atonement theory. I've come across Margaret Barker and her work re Temple Theology.
In this article James Alisontries to combine Girardian theory with Barker's work on temple symbolism.

This is probably the definitive Girardian atonement pageon the Internet.

Margaret Barker's essay on the Atonement (pdf) is very good.

Inspired by Barker I've been looking closely at the concept of the Jubilee and its climax in the Great Day of Atonement and how this how relates to Jesus. Jubilee is the great in gathering and renewal, and the day of atonement re how Jesus brought everyone around him, not substituting anyone else, how after he was murdered and everyone turned away, and then as a symbol of the what the cross does Peter hearing the cock crow and realizing what he has done, and how he and the rest of the disciples are called to be Priests or High Priests like Jesus and bear/forgive the sins of others.
Communion table is Christians gathering around a table to remember the broken body and blood of Jesus and to remember our sins and how they all end in murder if we don't repent.

I know, I know I'm not making any sense. Way too much to say, not enough time/space or really ability.

Luckily I always copy my comments, before I attempt to post them in blogger, or I would lose all my ramblings.

Hey Buck,

Thanks for your comment and I cer...

2006-10-23T09:39:00.000-07:00

Hey Buck,

Thanks for your comment and I certainly could be misunderstanding Girard. I'm still not really following your post though. What you describe as the scapegoat mechanism sounds to me like mob violence, in other words a bad thing. I think Girard overstates his case in saying that this is at the core of all religions and societies, but it is certainly true that this is a societal phenomenon.

My question is still what Christs sacrifice has to do with it? If he is appeasing it, then that would be wrong. I've heard both Marcus Borg and Walter Wink (I think Borg was following Wink here) say that the cross exposed the evil and injustice of the cross, and this would make sense that he exposes the injustice of the lynch mob mechanism. This sounds also a lot like Christus Victor where Christ overcomes the devil through the cross. I know that Wink builds off of Girard. I'm not sure if he is expressing Girardian theory here, or going beyond it. What do you think.

I think you're not completely understanding Girard...

2006-10-17T20:08:00.000-07:00

I think you're not completely understanding Girardian theory. Girardian theory doesn't understand the death of Jesus as satiating human wrath. Girardian theory is a theory re the foundation of all religion and really all societies. You say, "This idea of Jesus dying to appease our own wrongful need for retribution is, as far as I can tell, essentially what Girardian theory say". This isn't really correct, and what I'm going to be writing isn't probably really correct/thorough, but I'll give it a try.
Girardian theory posits that all human religion is founded upon a collective murder/lynching. Essentially, there's a violent crisis in the community. A mimetic crisis. Cycle of violence. People are imitating each other's violence. More people are being pulled into the vortex of violence. The community is about to destroy itself. Then a scapegoat is found. Someone makes an accusation against someone who is weak, and is not able to fight back. That accusation is copied. Violence builds against the scapegoat. The scapegoat is said to responsible for the violence that is plaguing the community. The scapegoat becomes a demon. At last all the community sins have been forced upon the scapegoat. Violence that formerly would have been directed against their neighbors is now directed against the scapegoat. Finally the unity of the community is complete, all the people have been drawn together to stone the scapegoat. Around the scapegoat's dead body former enemies become friends. These primitive people have now been blessed with a divine peace. The scapegoat becomes a god. A two-sided god, both bringer of violence and restorer of peace.

Some time in the future when violence begins to plague the community again, they return to what worked previously and ritually reenact the collective murder that brought peace the first time. The god in the form of an animal or a human being is collectively murdered/sacrificed again.

I'm not making sense I know, but a couple things.
Kings, in the beginning, were the ritual scapegoats. Kings were the substitutes for the community, they survived by finding substitutes for themselves. Girardianism is all about substitution. Girardian atonement theory is substitutionary atonement theory par excellance.

All human religion is founded around a collectively murdered body. The community becomes good while the victim is evil. Jesus comes to reverse this.

Jesus comes not to appease our need to base our unity and identity around a collectively murdered victim, but to abolish our ability to do so. We are no longer able to justify ourselves by collectively murdering someone else, we are justified by Christ giving himself to us.
Peter hearing the cock crow is not something that happens in pagan religions. In pagan religions the victim is always evil and remains evil.
Probably didn't make much sense, but there's alot more to say.

This is interesting I have to come back and read m...

2006-10-16T11:19:00.000-07:00

This is interesting I have to come back and read moor

//Fancy