Comments on The Rebel God: Penal Substitution AND Christus Victor?

One thing (that you seemed to find problematic as ...

2009-04-17T21:16:00.000-07:00

One thing (that you seemed to find problematic as well) I take issue with in Packer's statement is I believe it misses a lot of Trinitarian theology concerning the place of the Father and the Spirit in this event.

Heya, I'm sorry I didn't get to read the whole th...

2009-04-17T21:13:00.000-07:00

Heya,
I'm sorry I didn't get to read the whole thing, but from what I've seen I think I agree with you. I've actually just written a short paper on understanding Christus Victor as the means of making Recapitulation possible (it accomplishes restoration and redemption, but makes salvation [i.e., theosis] possible)and Ransom a part of that victory. The Victory being over the powers of sin and death (and Satan)so expiation can happen and redeeming "slaves" that have become "sons of Satan" as Irenaeus cites from Isaiah.

You may have said it, but the question I generally ask in the face of Penal Substitution or Anselm's Satisfaction theory is "Does something have to be changed/fixed in God or us?" Another question that answers why God has wrath is, "What's the purpose of his wrath or judgment of death?" The point (as we see in Genesis after the fall) of separation and thus death is to put a stop to the effect of sin. Death is the only way to kill sin, but it unfortunately kills us too. Jesus takes that penalty to overcome that power and expiate sin.

Therefore, the only reason God's "wrath" is "satisfied" is because sin is destroyed, not because his law has been put to rights.

That's the most Scriptural and (historically supportable by Church Fathers) I believe. The purpose of OT sacrificial system was solely expiation not propitiation and expiation (scapegoat and blood sacrifice were both symbols and actualization of sin being cast out and then "covered" by blood so that the sin was gone, not so that the law was satisfied and not angry anymore)

Key point, the sacrifice is not to satisfy anger. The anger or punishment is meant to destroy the thing that is destroying what God loves and the sacrifice is the means of destroying that sin (and overcoming it).

I think you're right on with using Recapitulation, Ransom, Christus Victor, and (not sure if you talked about it, but) Athanasius' healing motif. The largest issue I take with Anselm's Satisfaction and Calvin's Penal Substitution is that it suggests there is something in God that needs to be addressed. While there are bits that lead to these ideas in Augustine, I find it slightly problematic that they are based on Latin justice system (PS) (instead of Jewish) and Medieval kingship (Satisfaction). Again, it's even more interesting that so many hold to these so strongly as Satisfaction didn't come about until 11th century and PS in 15th century, but then have no concept of any doctrine that was held for the first 1000 years and thereafter in the East.

Derek,

Thanks so much for being a proponent...

2008-12-22T21:14:00.000-08:00

Derek,

Thanks so much for being a proponent of something I feel very strongly should be in the vocabulary and understanding of every Christian.

One thing that I would like to zero in on. From my own reading of Aulen's book and Christus Victor in general, it seems to me that the "substitution" idea and the "recapitulation" or "incarnational" idea are mutually exclusive. For Substitution, the fundamental idea is that Christ died, not us. For Recapitulation, the fundamental idea is that Christ died with us. The whole paradigm of the NT could be characterized as a participatory Atonement. We die with Christ and rise with Him. So for me, if Substitution, strictly understood, is correct then we don't actually die with Christ.

If we take Substitution as the paradigm, then the question will inevitably be asked, "Well, why do people who believe in God still die?" to which many theologians respond by spiritualizing death or looking to the Great Day. But if we take the NT at its word and see us as dying in Christ, we will obviously desire to follow in his footsteps by actually dying as he did. So the fundamental dynamic of Substitution is a separation. Christus Victor preaches a unification.

Thus, if I am right, there can be little to no real agreement between a substitution (except in the most vague terms) and a recapitulatory model of Atonement.

Dear Derek,

This is quite simply the most h...

2008-02-04T14:22:00.000-08:00

Dear Derek,

This is quite simply the most helpful document I have ever read (and I've read a lot) about the atonement. I hope you find a publisher.

peace and God speed

Hi Eric,

Several things I wanted to respond...

2008-01-23T09:23:00.000-08:00

Hi Eric,

Several things I wanted to respond to in your post

I agree with "Dave" that we should be thinking of combining theories of atonement instead of picking one over another.

This I agree on, but would argue that penal substitution is incompatible with Christus Victor and so we would need to find another way to understand the substitutionary nature of the cross. More on that later...

In one of my systematic theology classes at seminary, the professor urged us to consider that the various theories of the atonement are metaphors and that no one metaphor fully depicts the work of the atonement.

This is a common statement among theologians. As a artist I have so say I think that theologians who say this do not properly understand metaphor. As Dave says, I think the way we really need to understand these metaphors is not as a bunch of random imaged tossed together, but as interwoven parts of a narrative.

As such, I wrote a paper suggesting that the penal substitution theory is good, but should be strengthened by adding onto it the theory of Christus Victor.

I am interested in doing this too, but have come to the conclusion that they operate on mutually contradictory paradigms and that instead substitution should be understood as recapitulation.

I feel that your depiction of the Satisfaction Doctrine is inaccurate. First of all, I do not agree that the Satisfaction Doctrine is the same as the Penal Substitution Doctrine.

That's right, it is not the same. Related of course, but not the same. Sorry if I gave the impression they were.

In fact, your Christus Victor view so far sounds more like Socinus' Example Theory, which is a response to Calvin's Penal Substitutionary Atonement.

There are a few factual errors in here I wanted to sort out. Example Theory belongs to Abelard who was responding to Anselm not Socinus. I have read Socinus, and his argument against penal substitution is based on a rejection of the Trinity (Socinus was one of the founders of Universalism which was called so because of its anti-Trinitarian stance).

My perspective is that what God did for us should deeply move us and that it is focused on love. I'm pretty sure that people like Dave (who advocate penal substitution) would agree with me here. However I reject example theory as a stand alone theory. It only makes sense as an element of other theories, for example we might say that we can be moved by the sacrifice involved in penal substitution.

Second, I must wholeheartedly disagree that Jesus' death did not appease God. How else could Hebrews 9:14 be understood?

Heb 9:14-- "How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God"

The key term here is that the "blood of Christ" offered to God "cleanses" us from sin and death. So I would say that this is about expiation (cleaning, purifying, sanctifying of sin). I don't see anything about appeasing in here.

Jesus' death was offered to God so that we could serve God. I agree that OT sacrifices could not appease God, but the whole point of Hebrews is that Jesus' sacrifice was greater and was able to appease God once for all.

I think if you read Hebrews carefully you will see that it actually says that that OT sacrifices could not cleanse us of sin, and that the whole point of Hebrews is that Jesus' sacrifice was greater and was able to cleanse us of sin once for all.

I would argue that the purpose of the substitutionary death of Christ was this cleansing and expiation of sin making us a new creation.

Why does the Bible say that we were God's enemies (Rom. 5:10), that we deserved God's wrath (Eph. 2:3), and that we needed to be reconciled to God (II Cor. 5:19) if it is merely the powers of evil and death (and not our own sin) that held us in bondage?

Christus Victor would agree that we are God's enemies and say that we are at the same time belong to the devil because of our sin, and that our sin holds us in bondage. So it acknowledges both our owning up to our own evil, and that this evil is over our head and that we need help to escape it.

Eric,

You can email me. My email address i...

2008-01-22T00:40:00.000-08:00

Eric,

You can email me. My email address is xiaowei105@hotmail.com

This is Eric again. I just read part 3 about Chris...

2008-01-21T09:41:00.000-08:00

This is Eric again. I just read part 3 about Christus Victor.

I agree with you that the Satisfaction Doctrine does not focus enough on the resurrection. I believe that is the inherent weakness of the doctrine and that is why I advocate strengthening the Penal Substitution Doctrine with Christus Victor.

However, I have one question for you after reading Part 3. Why does the Bible say that we were God's enemies (Rom. 5:10), that we deserved God's wrath (Eph. 2:3), and that we needed to be reconciled to God (II Cor. 5:19) if it is merely the powers of evil and death (and not our own sin) that held us in bondage?

This is Eric again. I do still have that paper. I'...

2008-01-21T08:50:00.000-08:00

This is Eric again. I do still have that paper. I'd be glad to share it. How would you like me to get it to you?

Hi Eric,

Do you still have a copy of that p...

2008-01-21T05:33:00.000-08:00

Hi Eric,

Do you still have a copy of that paper? It would be good to see it somtime.

Derek and I had a more detailed further exchange of emails which maybe he will be willing to share some of the results of here. I am happy for him to do this.

One thing I think we need to do is move away from talking about "theories/models" of the Atonement. I would probably say that it is stronger than metaphor as well. Rather -we have in the Bible the full narrative of what Christ did on the cross. It is as you suggest, not pick and choose -but rather on the Cross Christ was our subsitute, taking our penalty, paying the ransom, winning the victory, demonstrating God's love, providing a wonderful example.

Blessings in Christ

Dave

My name is Eric, I am a pastor at an Evangelical c...

2008-01-19T11:50:00.000-08:00

My name is Eric, I am a pastor at an Evangelical church. I have only read the first two parts of this paper (I intend to finish reading later), but I felt I should comment.

I agree with "Dave" that we should be thinking of combining theories of atonement instead of picking one over another. In one of my systematic theology classes at seminary, the professor urged us to consider that the various theories of the atonement are metaphors and that no one metaphor fully depicts the work of the atonement. As such, I wrote a paper suggesting that the penal substitution theory is good, but should be strengthened by adding onto it the theory of Christus Victor.

I feel that your depiction of the Satisfaction Doctrine is inaccurate. First of all, I do not agree that the Satisfaction Doctrine is the same as the Penal Substitution Doctrine. In fact, your Christus Victor view so far sounds more like Socinus' Example Theory, which is a response to Calvin's Penal Substitutionary Atonement. Second, I must wholeheartedly disagree that Jesus' death did not appease God. How else could Hebrews 9:14 be understood? Jesus' death was offered to God so that we could serve God. I agree that OT sacrifices could not appease God, but the whole point of Hebrews is that Jesus' sacrifice was greater and was able to appease God once for all. Third, I disagree with you when you say that Jesus did not identify with a legal system. In Matt. 5:20, Jesus speaks of righteousness in such a way that we know we will be held up to a standard. Fortunately, that standard can be met in us to whom righteousness is credited (Rom. 4:24) by faith in Christ. Christ upholds the law - both the OT law (as a forerunner, see Matt. 5:17) and the new law of the spirit of life (Rom. 8:2).

I do not think you are doing anybody a service by rejecting Penal Substitution. It is not just that we "broke a law," it is that we offended God. Yes, penal substitution can sound gruesome. But we can show that God is not only the judge, but also the one who mercifully provided the way out of sin.

I think your voice would be more helpful if you tried to add Christus Victor to other theories of the atonement.

Comments on The Rebel God: Penal Substitution AND Christus Victor?

One thing (that you seemed to find problematic as ...

Heya, I'm sorry I didn't get to read the whole th...

Derek,Thanks so much for being a proponent...

Dear Derek,This is quite simply the most h...

Hi Eric,Several things I wanted to respond...

Eric,You can email me. My email address i...