Comments on The Rebel God: Violence in the Old Testament

I think maybe a change of heart is what God has go...

2011-09-23T19:29:27.589-07:00

I think maybe a change of heart is what God has gone through over the years as well? Maybe? I can understand having no patience, and see no other alternative but to push the button to save your own people from a lying, raping, mass-murdering peoples that will not listen to reason, and in fact kills anyone who tries to reason with them. I have defenately felt this having been in battle with the Islammists for the past 4 years now. If God decided to commit genocide against other Islammic-like countries in the distant past, I personally have no room to judge him in the wrong. Thanks for the good reading.

One of the reasons for reading this blog is tio he...

2011-09-23T19:11:24.246-07:00

One of the reasons for reading this blog is tio help me fight against Islam. The contrast in morality is poles apart within the OT. First there is a God that orders his people to kill the blasphjemers, then, with Jonah, God shows great patience, as he is going to show the Islammists. God is fighting peacefully with words using digital bodies. THis is where he wages Armageddon. I just wanted to chime in and confess that I have condemned all of Islam to die and go to Hell, but I lacked.

Great blog. Read the whole thing.I absorb the deit...

2011-09-23T19:05:59.312-07:00

Great blog. Read the whole thing.I absorb the deity of the Rider in Rev 19, battling against Islam(Satan) online for a few years now. I was getting banned at every turn for just simply speaking the truth about Muhammad, and I got to the point where I said to God "God, just blow them all up at Medine during their God-awful Hadj". God said to me "The people of Medina just don't understand, that is what I need you for". I have since changed my tune. I think I know a little about Jonah.

I asked you first.

2011-08-11T20:07:32.592-07:00

I asked you first.

How would you determine that what happened in the ...

2011-08-11T19:26:32.087-07:00

How would you determine that what happened in the old testament was not Gods command? Cause you don't like it?

"The answer is yes if its Gods command" ...

2011-08-11T18:55:32.141-07:00

"The answer is yes if its Gods command"

How would you determine if it was or not?

BtW, if God wants them dead, they die. Whether or ...

2011-08-11T18:41:41.530-07:00

BtW, if God wants them dead, they die. Whether or not I am in agreement. Your solution is to be condemned with them, not instead of them.

More of you doubting God. As if his will would only be accomplish-able through me

Like I said, read the link. It actually addresses ...

2011-08-11T18:40:01.482-07:00

Like I said, read the link. It actually addresses what you just said.

Short of it, they weren't all under judgement. That link should at least help you understand what happened to the amalekites. Your point doesn't even make sense since we will all be under judgement in the end anyway

Maybe then you will stop blaspheming.

The answer is yes if its Gods command. Until you change that condition to "maybe not Gods command" the answer will always be yes. I don't have the luxury of choosing my God, unlike you.

One situation you can consider. The reason those Amalekites were killed was that they oppressed the Israelites for centuries. Imagine this, the ones who remained hostile were allowed to live, eventually they attack on last time and kill the ancestors that were designated by God to give rise to Jesus. what then?

Similarly, God says destroy this nation and you don't. Then a few generations later they lay waste to your entire country. Can you claim to even know what those children would have become if they were left in the care of their evil parents instead of being sent to God? That is Gods realm

Sorry that is not the situation. In the hypothetic...

2011-08-11T16:21:17.813-07:00

Sorry that is not the situation. In the hypothetical situation we are discussing, you have been given the role of enacting God's judgment on everyone in a nation -- including infants. You must kill all of them as an act of God's judgment. All of them, being under judgement, will therefore go to hell forever. If you disobey you risk facing God's judgment and hell for yourself.

That is the situation. Would you like to change your answer now that you understand what is being asked, or would you still say "yes"?

It is your choice, but saying they go to heaven after you kill them is not a possible answer here. In this scenario God tells you to kill them and makes sure you understand that when you do they will all be sent to hell.

So what would you do?

Why would you think children go to hell? Who said ...

2011-08-11T12:06:07.011-07:00

Why would you think children go to hell? Who said it was to save my own neck? At no point did we talk about what would happen if you didn't and I really did not even think about that. Here I thought we were talking about obeying the just commands of your God when you know for a fact that they come from God. you keep passing it on to someone else, first it was man, now its the devil. I am saying, IF A PEOPLE were so evil that God saw it fit to destroy them, what would you do?

http://www.godandscience.org/doctrine/babies_who_die.html

http://www.inplainsite.org/html/do_children_go_to_hell_.html

Didn't expect that first paragraph from you at all. Children die all the time and you think a loving God sends them all to hell when they are clueless. Unfortunately parents CAN lead children astray later in life.

Someone made an interesting point once. If the grownups are sinners and god wishes to annihilate them as in S & G, what would you propose to happen to the kids?

Read this about the amalekite situation

http://christianthinktank.com/rbutcher1.html

Do you think no-one will ever be punished btw? I still maintain that a child that did not grow into the sins of his/her parents is saved.

Let's make something clear: in our hypothetica...

2011-08-11T11:28:59.004-07:00

Let's make something clear: in our hypothetical scenario the children that you say you would kill for God would all go to Hell forever because they would be under God's judgement. So the fact that you and I both believe in the afterlife is irrelevant. You are saying that you would send them all to Hell in order to save your own neck.

You are saying that you would be willing to kill thousands of children in order to save your own soul. I in contrast would be willing to sacrifice my own salvation in order to save them (as Paul did in Rom 9:3). Yours is a faith rooted in selfishness. Mine is one rooted in sacrifice for the sake of others (the way Jesus demonstrated and called us to follow).

If God really were a monster like you describe who would ask you to kill little children -- infants, then that God would be the devil, and it would be my duty to defy that false god in the name of Jesus and for the sake of agape love. You on the other hand follow that false god out of fear of punishment, and are willing to sacrifice all morality and righteousness in order to do so in order to save your own neck.

I will let readers decide which way looks more like the way of Jesus.

The question, again, was what if GOD told you to. ...

2011-08-11T09:46:41.583-07:00

The question, again, was what if GOD told you to. Your GOD. Your creator. Without any doubt. You are saying you would refuse because YOUR morals take precedent over his commands even though according to your religion and his words, death is not the end.

No confession from you could be more damning

lol. I guess everyone knows where you stand now. J...

2011-08-11T09:39:16.139-07:00

lol. I guess everyone knows where you stand now. Jesus said no to people, not God. A command from God is quite different from a man wanting to do something of his own will. Do you even know what you are saying? Everything you say of me is describing you. God is not your God unless it fits your human moral convictions. You've just confirmed that. You only follow Jesus because his teachings (the ones you choose to listen to) fit with your own morals.

Romans 8:7 That is why the mind that focuses on human nature is hostile toward God. It refuses to submit to the authority of God's law because it is powerless to do so.

Over and over people will put their will and conviction ahead of Gods and think they are right to do so. You are no christian or at least certainly do not desire to follow God. If you were Abraham when God asked him to sacrifice Isaac you would have failed miserably. You really don't understand what this all means, do you? You are one fail short of being an atheist.

I don't know why you are refusing to understand that there is punishment for sin. Jesus himself spoke of hell and God has every right to punish. God should never have wiped out Sodom and Gomorrah for their sins. Not even when they wished to rape his angels.

Let me propose two things to you: 1) Jesus said &...

2011-08-11T00:18:06.276-07:00

Let me propose two things to you:

1) Jesus said "no" when he was placed in similar situations. When they told Jesus the law commanded that a woman caught in adultery should be killed, he refused and rescued her from them (Jn 8:2-11). When they asked Jesus if he wanted to call down fire from heaven like Elijah, he rebuked his disciples for asking such a stupid question (Lk 9:51-56)

2) Jesus and Paul both say that we CAN and should say whether God told them to or not. Jesus expected his disciples to know that they should not call down fire. Paul says that we can have the "mind of Christ" and that because of that we can learn to see things as Jesus would.

So I would say "no" because I follow Jesus, and I am basing my decision on Jesus Christ, not on human wisdom or morals.

Your reasoning in contrast is of the devil. That is what Jesus would say to you.

Perhaps I am the first person to tell you this, and I'm sure you will not be able to hear me say this now, but you are in sin, Temi. The position you are taking is profoundly evil. Faith is supposed to make us more moral, not make us become void of all morality and cause us to hold positions that only a psychotic child murder would hold.

Jesus does not want us to stop thinking, or shut off our conscience. He says repeatedly that we should think for ourselves and not just blindly follow religious laws. Following Jesus does not mean becoming an amoral zombie, it means going beyond that and following the way of Jesus. What you are advocating is the opposite of that way.

The fact your religion has lead you to make such morally obscene statements is evidence that there is something deeply wrong with your faith. I pray for you that you will one day be able to see this and follow in the way of Jesus and not in the way of your toxic religion that promotes hate and killing masquerading as morality. I pray that God would shield others from being damaged by your blasphemy.

I realize that this is very strong language, and my objective is not to attack you personally or hurt your feelings, but we are talking about justifying the mass killing of little babies in the name of God. People have used the type of arguments you do to justify things like gassing Jews in the holocaust, and killing people with machetes in the Rwandan genocide. So this kind of evil talk needs to be rebuked and condemned in the strongest terms by the church. There is no sin as damaging than ones involving killing the defenseless in the name of God. It is strait from the pit of hell.

Those parts in the New Testament where Jesus warns of the fires of Hell are aimed at people who say things like you are. Repent.

How I would is not what you asked and you aren'...

2011-08-10T20:38:03.925-07:00

How I would is not what you asked and you aren't the one to say God did not inform them to do it in the bible. Past chapters had talked about the fact that God intended to wipe that particular peoples off the earth for what they did before it actually happened. Now do you know the details of their sins? Or are u just not happy with a God who is Just as well as loving?

How would you determine the difference between &qu...

2011-08-10T14:59:29.394-07:00

How would you determine the difference between "GOD TOLD ME TO" and "I thought God told me to"?

Yes. If God told me to. Don't bother twisting ...

2011-08-10T11:26:55.201-07:00

Yes. If God told me to. Don't bother twisting it, obviously I mean that if GOD TOLD ME TO, not if I thought God told me to.

I asked you first.

2011-08-09T18:38:40.302-07:00

I asked you first.

I should ask you the same thing. If God told you t...

2011-08-09T17:41:46.745-07:00

I should ask you the same thing. If God told you to do that, would you? This is not a trap question like yours. It is saying exactly what it is saying. If GOD HIMSELF, without the shadow of a doubt, told you to send an entire town to him, would you do it?

So if God told you to kill all the infants in your...

2011-08-09T11:08:46.872-07:00

So if God told you to kill all the infants in your town, you would?

I am not "defending" God because I don&#...

2011-08-09T10:59:55.225-07:00

I am not "defending" God because I don't think he needs defending. Maybe you don't understand what it means to be God. He is no Chuck Norris and he is not Barney. He has every right to punish sin. I am simply telling you of your shortcoming in thought. You have God on a human level. My point is that, if God did in fact sanction or allow killing, why do YOU think you are right to find it repulsive? You stand on really shaky ground. You are unwilling to consider the possibility that God did indeed tell them to send those peoples to him. Notice what I said. Your thinking is "ok, some people died, gone forever." when that is not the case.

I am not even sure there is a point in this. You don't seem to believe God would kill anyone even though it is obvious in the bible that he would. Of course its not ok to kill for human reasons but that really isn't the point here. The bible says that God sanctioned it, the bible says that God killed many times in the past when he punished sinners. You simply want to throw that side of him out because it doesn't fit well with your human morals and your human love of your human life. This is why I said its an atheistic view. You have put so much importance on this, that a person reading would be right in thinking you believe in nothing past death.

If you want to say the OT never happened then thats just your problem. Again, I am saying that God can and has killed and we should not be trying to pass judgement on him for that. The fact that we are still here as bad as we are is enough proof of his love and before Jesus, he dealt with us harshly.

What is so sad about this last comment is that in ...

2011-08-09T03:52:01.452-07:00

What is so sad about this last comment is that in trying so hard to defend God at ll costs, the poster inadvertently ends up advocating killing babies. Do we really think that God wants us to do that for Him? Does God appreciate being defended like that? Is that what standing up for God looks like? It's like people just shut off all sense of morality in the name of defending their faith. What could be more ironic and tragic?

The issue here is not whether God has the right to take a life, but whether people can kill other people in God's name. This is not just theoretical: Many people have used these verses to justify killing others, using the same type of arguments you have above. So, yes, I do think we should question someone who claims that God told them to mass slaughter infants. Duh. Defending killing in God's name is not a sign of faithfulness, it is a grave sin. Wake up.

Bottom line: questioning injustice, especially injustice and violence done in the name of God is not a sign of doubt or unfaithfulness, it is a sign that we care about the same things Jesus did. It is a sign of faithfulness to the true God revealed in Jesus Christ.

I found that after, I think, chris' fist comme...

2011-08-08T21:52:12.508-07:00

I found that after, I think, chris' fist comment it was all pretty clear. I feel the post author disagrees with the punishment of sin. Whether you like it or not, sinners will be punished again. Jesus will also be in support of the jugdement.

There also seems to be this assumption that God taking a life is a massive problem. How arrogant of a human is that? Then to go as far as jugde God by your ideea of morals against his dislike of sin.

Anyway. A child killed is not gone forever. What is to say that they aren't saved from the evils of the world (their parents would have lead them into sin against God). I feel like you take an atheistic approach to death even when the bible tells us that eternity is more important than our time here. Does god not even have the right to take you to him early? Is your life here si important that you would reject him? I think it is best to focus on something other than God causing human death on earth

I also agree with the accusation that people dont want to accept that sin will be punished. Love to them means doing whatever they want and getting away with it

Hey there Anon, I do read all the comments on the ...

2011-02-14T11:01:05.493-08:00

Hey there Anon,
I do read all the comments on the blog (I get auto-notifcation of them). This post is quite old, and my thinking has progressed quite a bit since then (although the trajectory is pretty much the same). Thanks for the article, I'll check it out.

I see this post is very old and more than likely y...

2011-02-10T10:21:24.045-08:00

I see this post is very old and more than likely you won't get this. But, I will try anyway. I did not read all sixty replies so this is directed at the original blog. Really liked it. Theodicy is extremely important and I have spent most of my thirty plus years as a believer wrestling with issues similar to your blog. Until recently many of the answers I had found left me wanting, too many puzzle pieces didn’t fit.

I would really like to leave a healthy commentary but time constraints and the fact you might not even get this stops me. Below I have left a link to an eBook that was extremely important to my journey into God’s goodness, I hope it blesses and challenges you as much as it did me.

http://thegoodnessofgod.com/goodness_part_one.pdf