tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32298156.post4870711073329298155..comments2008-01-28T10:28:59.532-08:00Sharktacoshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14211582724058718297noreply@blogger.comBlogger6125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32298156.post-12986608157054145392008-01-28T10:28:00.000-08:002008-01-28T10:28:00.000-08:00Yes, when I say "metaphor" I mean a way of speaking of something real in analogy - saying "it is like this". Metaphors if they do not connect to the real are meaningless of course.Derekhttp://sharktacos.com/Godnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32298156.post-70245375850115298442008-01-28T10:17:00.000-08:002008-01-28T10:17:00.000-08:00I think the regeneration comes in at the cross. I think it is not merely a metaphor but a spiritual reality that we die with Christ and are raised with Christ. <BR/><BR/>Take care & God bless<BR/>Anne / WFWeekend Fisherhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10425001168670801073noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32298156.post-60508721042685129602008-01-28T07:32:00.000-08:002008-01-28T07:32:00.000-08:00Anne,<BR/><BR/>I agree with all you say about trust, but am not yet following how it relates to the new birth. Specifically the aspect of how we were "dead in sin" but "made alive in Christ" as a "new creation". It seems that this particular "biological" metaphor picks up an aspect that the relational trust metaphor does not (although your idea of unconditional trust comes as close as is possible I think). I see them coinciding, but would want to retain both. It seems however that we may be saying very much the same thing. I just like having multiple ways to say it. The trust image is difficult because our trust relationship with God is on a more fundamental level than we can have with any human - God is the one in whom we "live and move and have our being". Our source of life.Derekhttp://sharktacos.com/Godnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32298156.post-27643202094128327482008-01-28T05:27:00.000-08:002008-01-28T05:27:00.000-08:00Hi Derek<BR/><BR/>On this line of thought, "trust in God for what" is the second question, not the first, so if I'm going to expound I need to start by backing up one. <BR/><BR/>"Trust in God?" is the ultimate question of religion. And here the first question isn't "trust God for x, y, or z", but more like -- did you see National Treasure, the first one? There's a scene where Nicholas Cage drops his girlfriend over a chasm. He'd just said, "Do you trust me?" That comes closer to describing the kind of trust I'm talking about, when I talk about "faith". It's not trust with an object somehow beyond the person (or Person) in question, trust him for x, for y, for z. It's a trust that latches directly onto the person you're talking about: Do you trust him? Unqualified trust. <BR/><BR/>And once there's that unqualified trust, it follows that trust in God will also involve trust in his intentions towards you, trust in his redemption, trust in his word, trust in his promises. But these are derivative of that main trust: the "Do you trust me?" which attaches not to some action that God has promised, but to God himself. <BR/><BR/>Trusting God on this level is only possible through the cross. It *creates* that kind of faith whereby we see Christ as our brother and therefore God as our Father. The cross itself restores that broken relationship. Consider that the original fall was primarily a loss of trust in God. <BR/><BR/>Take care & God bless<BR/>Anne / WFWeekend Fisherhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10425001168670801073noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32298156.post-14997961228977156382008-01-27T21:28:00.000-08:002008-01-27T21:28:00.000-08:00Hi Anne,<BR/><BR/>I like the idea of trust, but am not sure I am really following you here. Could you elaborate?<BR/><BR/>Or maybe I could ask: having faith (trust) in God for what? What is God faithful about specifically in relation to the new birth?<BR/><BR/>Look forward to learning more about your perspective.Derekhttp://sharktacos.com/Godnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32298156.post-4532965750371299992008-01-27T20:04:00.000-08:002008-01-27T20:04:00.000-08:00Have you considered the strain of thought that being born again *is* having faith (trust) in God? To say the same thing the other way around, that the new birth shows itself exactly as trust God and is comprised exactly of trust in God? <BR/><BR/>On this line of thought: Christ's life, death, and resurrection show God's faithfulness. Anyone who recognizes God's faithfulness is said to "have faith", since this is what "faith" is: recognizing God's faithfulness. So Christ's incarnation, life, death, and resurrection do not merely make possible some theory about atonement. They actually accomplish that reconciliation. <BR/><BR/>If you're interested in reading more of that line of thought, Gerhard Forde's _Where God Meets Man_ might be a decent place to start. <BR/><BR/>Take care & God bless<BR/>Anne / WFWeekend Fisherhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10425001168670801073noreply@blogger.com