Comments on The Rebel God: Wesley and Moral Law

Arty I think you make an excellent point, fully ag...

2009-09-12T19:59:35.375-07:00

Arty I think you make an excellent point, fully agree with your focus. The only thing I woud add is that Luther does have a perspective on sanctification which I think augments what you say. Recent research has shown that salvation for Luther was not a merely legal matter of declared righteousness – as the doctrine of justification is commonly understood – rather justification entails real transformation that Luther says affects our minds, our perceptions, and even our flesh,

"This is not a sham or merely a new outward appearance, but something really happens. A new attitude and a new judgment, namely, a spiritual one, actually come into being… a new creation … this is then followed by an outward change in the flesh, in the parts of the body, and in the senses. ... These changes are, so to speak, not verbal; they are real. They produce a new mind, a new will, new senses, and even new actions by the flesh." (LW vol. 27 Lectures on Galatians, 1535, Chapters 5-6 , pp. 139-140 on Gal 6:15).

I think fundamentally for Luther breaking God'...

2009-09-12T19:03:44.771-07:00

I think fundamentally for Luther breaking God's Law did not depend on being aware of it. In a Foresnic (objective?) sense we sin daily in thought, word, and deed by those things we have done (commission) and left undone (ommission)-whether conscious or not then. I think Wesley is more subjective with sin (those conscious acts against what I sense God's will as....).

Thus where the Wesleyan/Holiness churches seem to measure 'sanctification' or Christian maturity in terms of how many fewer acts of (known) sin I commit, for Luther Christian maturity would rather be measured in how much MORE I realize I have a (daily) need of Christ due to my continual growing awareness of sin/falling short.

(Personally, in practical Christian Living I have come to believe Luther had it best as his view is more likely to keep our eyes on Christ/the Cross than the Wesleyan where the focus is more on ourselves in attempts to measure sanctification...)

As I understand it, for Luther, we humans (Christian or Pagan) sin BECAUSE/as a result of being sinners by nature.

Your description of Luther's take on sanctificatio...

2007-10-22T20:13:00.000-07:00

Your description of Luther's take on sanctification is interesting to me because I am reading Karl Barth's section on sanctification in his Dogmatics right now and he takes pretty much exactly this line of thought, so it sounds like he picked it up from Luther. Do you recall where exactly Luther talks about this? It might be interesting to cross reference.

And "curbing wrongdoing" (use #1 in Luther's list)...

2007-10-22T09:39:00.000-07:00

And "curbing wrongdoing" (use #1 in Luther's list) was the use of the law that Luther found most appropriate to the unsaved. The "guide to God's will" (use #3 in Luther's list) was only really applicable to those who cared what God's will might be ...

Luther probably saw sanctification much differently than Wesley did. For Luther, sanctification is about death and resurrection: letting the law condemn us to death and letting its death sentence kill us in our old natures, while through the cross and the empty tomb of Christ raising the new nature to life.

Hi WF!

Sort of. I think though that Luther ...

2007-10-22T01:54:00.000-07:00

Hi WF!

Sort of. I think though that Luther and Wesley mean fundamentally different things with the term "law". Luther means the more conventional sense of the word as an abstract moral principles, secular laws, etc. Wesley means the illuminated word and will of God. It is a sense of law tied up into an active relationship with God, and so it is only something that a person can walk in who is reconciled with God. So it does not just curb wrongdoing, it sanctifies because it involves out following the will of God by abiding in God.

"Moral law" is really a bad choice of terms with Wesley that makes things confusing because what he means really is something more like "the Way".

Wesley's uses of the law sound much like Luther's ...

2007-10-21T21:05:00.000-07:00

Wesley's uses of the law sound much like Luther's "3 uses of the law", though there are differences. Luther's recognizes uses of the law were to curb wrongdoing, to convict us of sin and lead us to Christ, and to instruct us in God's will.

Take care & God bless
WF