tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32298156.post8341153257916285256..comments2008-04-08T05:21:01.797-07:00Sharktacoshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14211582724058718297noreply@blogger.comBlogger3125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32298156.post-20673476453271641472008-04-08T05:21:00.000-07:002008-04-08T05:21:00.000-07:00I think that many people on the path back to GOD get caught up along the way with semantics, sub-branches of rigid philosophies and other dogmatic pursuits... instead of surrendering directly to the living, present, universal godhead that is available in every microsecond. People who might have even convinced themselves that they are in GOD's service somehow avoid the direct communion in favor of intellectual debate. Apophatic vs. Kataphatic is somewhat interesting for sure, but in practice it is always both. <BR/><BR/>I stumbled across this new One-Sentence Religion site, and I think that it states my current belief and practice better than any more mumbo jumbo that I could spew. Check it out: http://iamofyou.comAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32298156.post-27615554426264442122008-02-17T21:30:00.000-08:002008-02-17T21:30:00.000-08:00Hi Joseph,<BR/><BR/>I actually like what Rollins has to say and find myself agreeing with most of it. I consider myself to be a mystic, and have read quite a few works by the mystics including all of the ones you mentioned. I am also familiar with the idea of apophatic theology in a profoundly experiential way because I had a dark night of the soul myself. Not in the popular sense of the word, but the good old fashioned St John of the Cross kind. At the time no one I knew could really help me until I stumbled upon the book by St John of the Cross and found him describing exactly what I was going through. So I am familiar with and sympathetic to mystical theology - both theologically and experientially. It basically picked up in my life and took me beyond my initial born again expereince teaching me how to live in relationship with God after being born.<BR/><BR/>When I speak of "becoming like a child" I do not mean being immature, but as you say "surrendering all concepts we have pasted onto God" - being utterly dependent, surrendering, dying. I would say that this idea of dependency is at the heart of all mysticism from Dionysious to Eckhart. That can as you say be painful just as being born is, but what I want to stress is that it leads to joy, life, and light (just as birth does).<BR/><BR/>On a theological level I also very much get what Rollins is saying about the limitations of knowledge to capture the indescribable wow of God, as well as the importance of art in worship. As an artist and theologian that is one of my major focuses in fact. There are things you can "say" through art that are trans-rational, allowing you to speak of the unspeakable in the messy and beautiful way that only art can.<BR/><BR/>I think my problem is that in addition to the points an author is making in a book, in each work the spirit of the author also comes through, and Rollins strikes me as someone who is... well... depressed. It's just a vibe I had throughout the whole book and that really came across in the extremely depressing services described at Icon. A theory I have is that often people who are ill can come up with some brilliant insights into life. Its true of artists and true of theologians. Wesley was obsessed with performance and that illness led him to uncovering great insights into sanctification. Luther was obsessed with guilt and that led him to rediscover the message of grace. So as much as Rollins fits into that pattern I want to acknowledge the heights he is reaching and add my "amen" while at the same time not following him into a joylessness.<BR/><BR/>Incidentally, have you read "Christianarchy" by Dave Andrews? He makes essentially the same point as Rollins. Its one of my favorite books. There's a bit about it on his website here: http://www.daveandrews.com.au/chr.htmlDerekhttp://sharktacos.com/Godnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32298156.post-12023776392744780282008-02-17T18:40:00.000-08:002008-02-17T18:40:00.000-08:00Hey Derek <BR/><BR/>I hope you don't think that I'm picking on you, but I think you're trying to bypass one of the more important points that Rollins is trying to make.<BR/><BR/>It seems to me that Peter Rollins has revived the paradoxical relationship between kataphatic theology (applying conceptual ideas to God, either abstract or metaphorical) & apophatic theology (acknowledging that God is beyond any concepts we may try to apply to him)in an accessible fashion for postmodern evangelical christianity.<BR/><BR/>Apophatic theology & spirituality are an integral (if sometimes unacknowledged) part of the Orthodox & Roman Catholic traditions, but fell out of favor with the Protestant churches. I think the reasons for this are complex, but maybe it is primarily because the reformers placed so much emphasis on intellectual & emotional conversion, & acceptance of propositions of faith. Thus the emphasis on being born again, or saved by accepting Jesus as personal savior, & the discarding of emphasis on practices such as liturgical prayer & the sacraments.<BR/><BR/>The authors of apophatic mystical works such as the Cloud of Unknowing, St John of the Cross' Dark Night of the Soul, or St Dionysious' Mystical Theology were for all monastics, who were schooled in devotional kataphatic practices such as psalmody, & practicing the liturgical hours of prayer. Maybe it requires a strong foundation in the practice of devotion to God to be able to bear surrendering all concepts we have pasted onto God.<BR/><BR/>You write, "What concerns me here is that in some mystical writings there is a sense of dread, distance, and emptiness that strikes me as abusive and life-sucking." You seem to be implying that this is some form of excessive, masochistic asceticism. The term Dark Night of the Soul has fallen into common use & been trivialized in our time. But John of the Cross was trying to make a profound point; that a deeper experience of communion with God is only possible after undergoing a sometimes painful purification. He did not see this as the result of any effort on our part, but as a grace that God bestows on us.<BR/><BR/>I believe you are correct in stating that we need to approach God in childlike humility. But are we to stay children & never mature? All too often evangelicals fall into fundamentalism & vehemently deny that there is anything deeper than the initial conversion experience of being born again or saved.<BR/><BR/>Peter Rollins is advocating a return to the paradoxical truth that the God who is revealed to us in Jesus Christ remains the God who cannot be caged in any concept. I believe this is sorely needed if the emerging church scene hopes to truly overcome the limitations of our conceptual straightjackets.<BR/><BR/>These are a few basic works of apophatic spirituality that are easily available I would recommend:<BR/><BR/>Dark Night of the Soul by St John of the Cross - translation by Mirabai Starr<BR/><BR/>The Cloud of Unknowing & The Book of Privy Counsel - edited by William Johnston<BR/><BR/>Contemplative Prayer by Thomas Merton<BR/><BR/>peace<BR/>josephJosephnoreply@blogger.com